YTSEJAM Digest 3274
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Pre-NYC Gathering
by Perk1994@aol.com
2) Re: Overplaying? What exactly is a "song"?
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
3) maturity
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
4) Re: Washington Post
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
5) Re: progression
by Einstein H Zappa <afn39111@afn.org>
6) All about Mike Bahr, DT Xmas CD '97, Anastasia, College Football, and Rush silvers for sale
by Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com>
7) Placekickers
by Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com>
8) Read twice before responding, Clark.
by someone@prognosis.com
9) re : Images And Words Hard Box !!!
by Arash Ashouriha <ashouria@FH-Niederrhein.DE>
10) Musical Maturity (Beta 1.0)
by someone@prognosis.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:02:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Perk1994@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Pre-NYC Gathering
Message-ID: <971122000245_-389229220@mrin79>
In Ytsejam 3270, David Kobayashi wrote:
<< i've been curious as to whether or not there's going to be a gathering
before
the irving plaza show, and mr. adam (perk1994@aol.com) suggested a place
called, to quote him, "the Heartland Brewery, at 34 Union Square West. It's
like three blocks away from Irving Plaza, near Staples (about a block
away)."
this sounds very good to me. no time was set, and hopefully one will be
sooner or later. i'll be off to poughkeepsie, ny, until tomorrow morning, so
i'll hopefully find out what time any gathering takes place.
this invitation is open to anyone on here who's planning on going to the
show
(hey skadz- you going?), so hop in.
hope to hear good news tomorrow. >>
Hello everyone,
I am the "Mr. Adam" David was talking about. The Heartland Brewery is pretty
cool and pretty big. It's not too far from Irving Plaza. It's across Union
Square from Irving Plaza. I will be getting down there around 6:00 p.m. I'll
be the short guy with glasses and a goatee with a Marillion hat on and
probably a green jacket. Hope to see some of you there.
Take care,
"Mr." Adam Perkowsky
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:08:47 -0500
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Overplaying? What exactly is a "song"?
Message-ID: <19971121191644.AAB4154@sni.pananet.com>
OK, I've actually been thinking a lot about this as of late. The
definition for a 'song' is a short piece of music with lyrics. The music
is supposed to support the lyrics, and the lyrics should have a refrain
that is repeated (ie chorus). This, as you may have noticed, is the
standard format for popular music. And I'm thinking about all of music
history, not just the present. So I'm including folk music, troubadors,
etc.. in 'popular music.
Now lets look at 'serious' music. You know, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc..
They didnt write 'songs', but there were different types of compositions
they used (and use), i.e. symphonies, concertos, tone poems, etc.. They had
a certain structure, but generally they have more of stream-of-conciousness
flow to them. If a theme is repeated, it is usually done in a different
way. And there's a lot more interaction between instruments, and they
often trade the melodies between them, etc..
Now lets look at the present. What we here in the radio, and what the
general public is usually talking about when they refer to music, is
popular music. So when they listen to a piece of music the general idea is
that the main voice (singer, guitar, whatever) is supposed to be supported
by the rest of the musicians. They're not supposed to get in its way, or
distract attention from it. Obviously, if a 'supporting' part starts
getting complex, people who are paying most of their attention to the main
voice, will see it as 'overplaying'.
Then there's the wonderful world of prog. I see prog as a hybrid monster.
Prog musicians want to have that complex, stream-of-conciousness flow of
classical music, but at the same time, having grown on rock and other
popular music, they also have that influence. Now, what we have here, is
something between the 2 styles. The music is more complex than pop music,
although not as much as classical...and there are lyrics. And
generally...prog fans pay attention to both. They listen closely to the
music as well as the lyrics, and see how they both compliment each other.
But when a pop-music fan listens to prog...well the most probably listen to
it in the same way they listen to everything else...they pay main attention
to singer, lead guitar, etc... Now if there're all these other instruments
behind going whooptee-doo, la-deee-da-dee-da, all over the place, they dont
like it, because it's just getting in the way, and not adding anything
important (for them).
phew! I hope I explained myself well:)
Ernesto
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:08:43 -0500
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: "That Darn Mailing List Thingy" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: maturity
Message-ID: <19971121191644.AAA4154@sni.pananet.com>
I personally dont say FII is more mature because the songs are shorter, but
for other reasons. Firstly, there's the individual approach as musicians.
It sounds to me that there is more interaction between them, while before
there seperate parts had more of a "Hey, listen to me, my part is so cool"
to them.
And as for composition...well, to *me*, it seems in the past there were
parts that didnt really need to be there, and songs that still needed some
working on (as much as i love the song, i still cant stand the change into
the first chorus of 'Scarred'). In FII there seems to be none, or very
little of this.
And the argument is that FII is *more* mature than their past work. Nobody
in this list ever said their other stuff was immature. It's like if you
went to a party (why do we always have to use analogies? :) and had a lot
of fun. The next day you go to a DT concert and have even *more* fun. Now
that doesnt mean that the party was boring...just that the concert was
funNER.
>my ears, is such a drastic departure from DT's other work, that I just
find it
>hard to believe that so many people on this list, who were brought here by
>their common love of DT's previous work (they had to be, since FII just
came
>out) weren't just tailoring their expectations of FII and their musical
>standards in general to what they got, as opposed to really listening to
the
>album objectively. I'm not saying that many people probably don't like
this
As for me, my musical tastes have changed a LOT since Awake came out.
Honestly, if they had released a CD like I&W, I would have been
disappointed. But thats just me, i see music differently. And for some
awesome coincidence, up till now DT has changed with my tastes. This
probably wont go on forever, but I'll enjoy it while it lasts:)
Man, have i blabbered today.
Ernesto
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:18:43 -0500
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Washington Post
Message-ID: <19971121192842.AAA4314@sni.pananet.com>
> PHOTO CAPTION: "Dream Theater's dramatic license: much ado about
nothing."
>
>
> Oy vey.
>
> Ryan
Dont worry dood. After HY is released, all those reviewers will be biting
their tongue.
The take-over cometh! MUAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!
:)
Ern
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:56:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Einstein H Zappa <afn39111@afn.org>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: progression
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.95.971122004305.73994A-100000@freenet2.afn.org>
Okay, while I'll agree that Faith No More is not really progressive (there's
some occasional prog elements, but overall it's less complex than, say,
King's X), I must take issue with people saying Primus and Mr. Bungle are
not prog.
Primus is prog enough to have been called many times disparagingly "a King
Crimson cover band." Admittedly, they've been moving away from prog, and
the loss of Herb goes a lot toward this, but any band who opens a concert
with YYZ seguing into one of their songs, and having it fit, sounds prog
enough for me.
And Mr. Bungle is so incredibly complex and out there, most of the time,
that there's no way they're not progressive. More progressive than Rush,
more than ELP, and with the added bonus of being not highly derivative of a
70s prog band, which you can't say for all the progressive rock out there.
Mr. Bungle is also weird enough to be one of my weed-out bands--a woman who
can appreciate Mr. Bungle is obviously close to perfect. A lot of people
can appreciate something like "Scarred," but it's much more difficult to
find someone who can sit through "carry stress in the jaw." The CLOCKWORK
ORANGE of music.
Sorry, I got carried away there.
There has only been one thing in my life worth living for,
So it would take a true genius to fuck it up.
Call me Einstein Hawkings Tolkien Heraclitus Darwin PKD Zappa.
(http://www.afn.org/~afn39111)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:04:44 -0700
From: Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: All about Mike Bahr, DT Xmas CD '97, Anastasia, College Football, and Rush silvers for sale
Message-ID: <3476840C.66DB@goodnet.com>
I don't know entirely why my name has popped up in recent issues,
but... cool! :) Nothin' like a party atmosphere to make a list worth
reading. You guys should check out TNMS right now. I posted there that
things weren't all that bad, at which point they REALLY took a nosedive,
and my words taste kinda like chicken. :)
As to the people asking who the hell I am, I'm not anyone of
importance. Just a long-time net DT fan, and I have a small CD project
underway that I've been working on for a while now, that DT fans seem to
enjoy.
It's good to see that the DT Xmas CD '97 is going to contain the
remainder of the FII outtakes. This is, IMHO, a very good idea for the
band. The premium CDs can only go so far, you know. Anyone even seen the
Hollow Years single yet? Best Buy doesn't have it on their ordering
computer...
All of you who are dating, engaged, married, or even have a woman you
sorta like staring at, DROP what you're doing right now and go see
ANASTASIA. I have to say, this movie was just incredibly impressive. Fox
has, in my humble opinion, completely outdone Disney in every way with
this film. The voice actors are perfect matches for their characters,
the story is immersive, the art and animation is spectacular, and the
finale' will have your woman grabbing for a hanky, and that means it's a
great "date" movie. For once an animated feature has been made that
appeals to an adult audience WITHOUT pandering so blandly to the child
audience, something Disney keeps getting stuck doing. And the music,
while more "pop" than "prog", was far better than I ever expected, and
the haunting Russian melodies will spin around in your mind while you
watch the snow flurries spin on the screen. I definitely look forward to
Fox Animation's next effort. Now if only they had used a certain Tori
Amos song somewhere in the film... :)
Well, my beloved Arizona State Sun Devils get to sit out this
Saturday's gridiron action, letting all the other rivalries happen
before we beat up on U of A next Saturday. Here's hoping Washington
beats Washington State, and USC beats UCLA, which will land the Devils
in the Rose Bowl if they win as planned. Even in the event that doesn't
happen, it was awesome to see ASU excel in what was supposed to be an
"off" year. And to Jai John... sorry to hear about Rutgers. Better luck
next year? Well...
Finally, I have some rather difficult to find Rush boot silver CDs for
sale. My friend Justin has a teen sister named Brianna. My other friend
Kevin decided to get her pregnant, and proceeded to lose his job and his
apartment, and I believe they're currently living in his truck, and
occasionally on various living room floors. Naturally, she's not
insured, and he managed to get work at a retail store just for the
holidays, and he wanted to know if I would be so kind as to offer up his
Rush CYGNUS (still shrinkwrapped new, since he never had to open it, he
just kept borrowing mine) and his Rush CRITICAL MASS 2-CD set, mint
condition, here on the Jam. He's asking $50 for Cygnus and $60 for
Critical Mass, though if anyone else is in a generous mood, they're
welcome to send more to help out. E-mail me if you're interested in
either or both titles. Good karma shall follow you. :)
Take care all!!
-- -Mike Bahr/Prism Records -durnik @ goodnet . com -http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:18:55 -0700 From: Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Placekickers Message-ID: <3476875F.6432@goodnet.com>
To the curious, yes, Matt and Chris Bahr the NFL placekicker duo of years past are my second cousins. I've never met them, but they are the children of my great uncle (deceased) on my father's side. I was a placekicker for one season during my freshman year at high school at Brophy in Phoenix. My position was actually more of a "multipurpose backup"... I backed up the FG kicker, punter/kickoffer, quarterback (I was actually the third QB and we never had a QB injury, so even #2 never had to play the position), FG holder, and nickel backs, many of which were played by the same guys. That's what HS football is all about, playing as much as possible. I practiced a hell of a lot and didn't play much, and didn't make the team sophomore year. I sucked at kicking but most everyone else sucked worse except the starters. I guess it's not hereditary then. :)
I wonder if the members of DT ever played sports? Here's hoping they were better than I was.
-- -Mike Bahr/Prism Records -durnik @ goodnet . com -http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:33:30 +0000 From: someone@prognosis.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Read twice before responding, Clark. Message-ID: <199711220729.XAA11403@odin.ax.com>
> I've taken issue with this in the past; I happen to think that it's a bunch > of bullshit.
You have the right to your opinion. I just find it ironic that DT themselves have been quoted as saying that FII is more mature than their previous works. And that's *after* the argument was brought up here. I don't pretend that this makes ones side wrong and one side right... I'm just amused that DT disagrees with you. :)
> But my question is this: to all of you who said that (that the > shorter, poppier, simpler, and supposedly less "wanky" songs on FII are more > mature than DT's previous work),
You have an interesting way of pigeonholing us on your own preconceived notions of what "we" think is "mature." Song length, poppiness, and simplicity don't necessarily have anything to do with maturity IMO, else FII couldn't possibly be mature. These are mostly not short songs. They're mostly not poppy songs. There are maybe 2 simple songs on the album. Maybe. Lets categorize those three things there, while we're at it. The length of the song is empirical. It's factual. We can't argue on that. Simplicity... well, to an extent, that too is factual, among musicians of a certain instrument and a certain degree of accomplishment. I don't pretend to be able to judge a drumming performance as well as a drummer of 10 years, and thus, I don't believe that a non-guitarist (or perhaps even a guitarist with limited experience in playing these kinds of rhythms and solos) can make a more informed judgement of the complexity of the guitar playing on an album than I can. Poppiness is in the ear of the beholder. I don't think we can draw a standard of what "poppy" is. Attempt if you so choose, but I think it's a subjective term.
> how come I don't remember anyone ever > complaining about this before FII came out? Maybe it's just my bad memory, but > I don't recall seeing too many posts last year that said "You know, I like > I&W and Awake, but I really feel that DT's songwriting is somewhat immature."
I think you can say something is "mature" after listening enough and thinking about it. But just because something sounds mature, at the time, doesn't mean that it's the new found pinnacle of maturity, and there can be no growth from there on. How can you say that something has grown, without something to compare it to? Awake, in my opinion, is more mature than Images and Words, which is more mature than WDADU. FII is more mature than all of these. I attribute this (the cause, not the details of what "maturity" is) to the fact that the band has been constantly striving to write more material and better material. This is their GOAL, whether they're succeeding or not, right? I mean, you agree that they're TRYING to improve themselves, right? Further, saying that the new album is more mature, doesn't mean that the old albums are "immature," but rather that we feel the sound has grown (that may merely be our evaluation of the change in sounds, but clearly, it's folly to try to argue over who is right and who is wrong in that respect), and not stagnated.
> my ears, is such a drastic departure from DT's other work, that I just find it > hard to believe that so many people on this list, who were brought here by > their common love of DT's previous work (they had to be, since FII just came > out) weren't just tailoring their expectations of FII and their musical > standards in general to what they got, as opposed to really listening to the > album objectively.
See, this again is one of those times that you make these assumptions about everyone. Why can't the people who like the album just like the album, and not have to be ass kissers or have to be following the band just because it's Dream Theater? I only know for a fact that I listened to the album objectively... I can't know what you or anyone else did, unless they make the error of saying "I heard it once, and it SUCKED so I threw it out." or whatever. You can only know how YOU listened to the album. Maybe you were so "in line" with everyone else... that is to say, you liked the older DT stuff for the same reasons that everyone else was bringing up on this list, but with this new album, they've strayed from the direction you had hoped for, and started heading to some place you don't like... but that has no bearing on others' opinions, as of course you understand. Is it possible for you to accept that people may just disagree with what you're saying? That's what you called a "cop out" before. I mean... how can I say this... that didn't sum it up; I personally think, our argumentative histories aside, that you have a problem with people accepting Dream Theater's "Departure" from their older style, as you put it. I don't know the reasons for this, if that's even the case, but that's certainly how it sounds, especially in light of your last post. Of course, if you're just going to say that you're being objective, and we're not thinking correctly, then you're no better than Kuba, and you really need to knit me a sweater. :) I don't think you have the ability or the right to judge how fans of FII are listening to the music... it's not yours to label us objective or not, unless you're able to question us each, and get a real understanding for each of our feelings on the album and its individual facets.
> seems like alot of the same people who used to rave about DT's dazzling > instrumental prowess and complex song-writing are now hailing their "maturity".
So you're telling me that this isn't Myung, Petrucci, and Portnoy's most dazzling technical work? I disagree there. Furthermore, maturity isn't contradictory to prowess. Maturity would involve better use of that prowess. You're in the minority among musicians if you think that prowess itself is good enough, or that once you've got chops, you have to throw them all away for some "mature enlightenment." There's more to being a musician than just having finger coordination, or else I would be a much better player than I am. That's not to say you support either of those beliefs, so don't flip out on me for making those points.
> And that just seems a little too convenient to me.
I'm sorry if it's convenient, but that's just the way that I feel it is. Disagree if it will make you fill with the bubbling bubblies of joy.
> (I think that's what it was about) got me thinking about this again, and how, > to me, it seems like most people are defining "mature" by this same concept. > And I would argue that if there's any such thing as mature musicianship at all, > that it's more about doing what comes from the heart and finding your own > musical voice and style, instead of conforming to a standardized format for > the sake of the sacred "song".
Okay, I will attempt to think out a clear definition of what I intend when I say "musically mature." It's just my first real attempt to nail it down, so I gaurantee it will have to be refined before I can make it fit my concept of maturity. Please, I invite you to find contradictions, so that I can make this a more complete definition... I feel that I can judge, on the basis of multiple works from an artist, whether or not I hear the artist maturing. I don't know if I can put it into words, but because it would be interesting to try, I will attempt it. I'm going to think about it for a little while, and try to put it in its own e-mail.
I'll finish this in a bit.
Chris Ptacek someone@prognosis.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman Go Home and Practice!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:57:40 -0800 From: Arash Ashouriha <ashouria@FH-Niederrhein.DE> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: re : Images And Words Hard Box !!! Message-ID: <34770F04.3082@kr.fh-niederrhein.de>
>I'd open it too, because the music on the CD is worth much more than the >packaging. At first, I thought this was some kind of novelty item, until >it was cleared up that it's just a long box. I don't think there's >anything in it except for the CD. No bother keeping it sealed.
Shit, I thought there was a warning card or something inside which says :
Warning :
The music on this album is too progressive.
If you are some kind of top 40 listener, it might cause some overloading in your brain ;-)
Arash
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- | PROG OR DIE - The Progressive Music Page | | | | DREAM THEATER - FATES WARNING - ROYAL HUNT - SHADOW GALLERY | | | | http://lionel.kr.fh-niederrhein.de/~ashouria/index.htm | | OR | | http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/1748/ | | | | by Arash Ashouriha | | | | ashouria@kr.fh-niederrhein.de | --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:12:14 +0000 From: someone@prognosis.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Musical Maturity (Beta 1.0) Message-ID: <199711220807.AAA11663@odin.ax.com>
Musical maturity is an evolving state (e.g. if you are maturing, you are changing for the better) which encompasses (A.) phrasing, (B.) technical ability, (C.) songwriting ability, (D.) the ability to create unique and interesting melodies, (E.) and the ability to keep things "fresh," that is, to keep from doing the same thing over and over again (read: YNGWIE). A). Phrasing is sort of the aspect of playing that allows one to improvise (if you're writing your solos and stuff, that's composing, not phrasing, as I see it) a solo or a line, and have it sound good. This is to be judged on an individual basis, since people disagree on what sounds "good." One of the most basic elements that people usually agree on, is that for a phrase to be good, it should fit the mood of the song (or go against it, when that's the goal... this of course would be obvious, like in Thal's music, or Buckethead's solos) and stays in key. The mere ability to phrase doesn't make one musically mature, and further, there are different levels of maturity in phrasing. We could go through some solos on a case by case basis on iparty or something, and I could give you concrete examples of mature and immature phrasing. B). Technical Ability is pretty obvious. It's the ability to play your instrument. This ability has many levels, as there are different levels of playing capability. This particular category will probably draw the fewest arguments... there's a general sense of "quality" that one can hear in levels of technique. C). Songwriting ability... oh boy, this one is tough. To me, like the others, this is multi staged. a good songwriter should be able to weave all the aspects of his abilities together, and create a piece of music that has some sense of intrinsic value. I feel that adding solos where they don't belong, showing off when it doesn't help the song, poor construction, and other failures can damage the quality of a song. Thus, I think that a song can have a 20 minute solo, and that solo can ruin an otherwise great song, even though the right 20 minute solo may improve the song. This is going to need more refining, so understand, I don't accept it as complete... maybe you want to give your own two cents... D). The ability to create unique and interesting melodies. A friend of mine (who is rated on any possible scoring system as a genius, by the way... I mean we're talking a real freak "know it all") once said to me "You know, Chris, I think there have only been a handful of truly great composers out there... people who can really write melodies that you never forget. Beethoven, Gershwin, the Beatles... but really, there aren't that many people who can really pull off melodies that ANYONE, regardless of musical tasts can enjoy." I personally believe that there have been many such composers... but the idea is that it's a particular ability to be able to come up with cool melodies. I think that to an extent with this one, you're either composing great melodies or you're not. You may write shit for years, and then just wake up with a great tune, or you may hit it right, right from the start. Think of the melodies of songs alone. Some of DT's stuff would really fit with this idea; the vocal melodies to Metropolis, Learning to Live, and Lines in the Sand... these to me are good examples of melodies that I think hit the nail on the head. One modern player who has a great record of writing killer melodies is Joe Satriani... an instrumentalist who is enjoyed by musicians AND non musicians... and I think it's for the energy he creates with his melodies. E). Keeping things fresh; This just means "Change things up!" A mature artist isn't going to be stuck writing the same songs (as great as they may have been) over and over again. He or she is going to explore other avenues, and really branch out to use as many of his or her emotions as possible in the music. Sure, we might like another Images and Words. But there is not one person on this list who wouldn't eventually get tired of DT doing the same thing over and over again. This is what happened to Yngwie. This is what I think was hurting Stratovarius. This is what killed King Diamond. There must be some new elements, and some new ideas explored. That doesn't mean "I want Morbid Angel to try some latin jazz." I mean that a mature musician should be able to hear if the music is sounding redundant, and should be able to compose music that will expand, rather than dwell on what has already been done.
I believe that you can judge (after thorough analysis) that an album is mature, based on your own opinions of how well that artist performed in each of these categories, or based on the succession from album to album, comparing these categories. It's imortant to note that if you hear only one album, and consider it to be mature, that decision doesn't eliminate the possibility of the next album being even MORE mature. And should the next album be considered more mature, that doesn't mean the first album is immature... merely that it isn't *as mature*. I would contend that Falling Into Infinity is a stronger offering in all of these categories, in my own opinion, than any album Dream Theater has released to date. I guess you'd have to judge for yourself whether or not you're going to agree with me, and that's cool. As a guitarist, I can say that from the perspective of someone trying to emulate JP (were I to attempt it), not only are things getting more difficult, but we can now also say "That sounds like Petrucci" where I don't think I could do that back when Images and Words came out, because Petrucci sounded like many other players. You'd have to have heard the players that I compare him to to really get a fel for that, and I don't expect you all to rush out and buy a hundred shred cds on my recommendations. Still, from a guitar point of view, since I feel most qualified to compare from that angle, I think this is Petrucci's finest work in weaving all of the categories above into a complete performance. That is why I consider his own playing more mature now than ever before. I feel that the rest of the band has improved notably as well, in the same manner... so that's, loosly, why I consider FII to be their most mature album to date.
There will surely be glaring inconsistencies in this concept, since it's late, and I'm just formulating it for the first time in words, in as long as it's taken to type this. Please consider that, and understand that I may find problems, upon further investigation, that require me to rethink parts of this qualification. Judge for yourselves (those who plan to respond) whether or not to send your responses in private or public mail. Since I didn't flame anyone, if you have a gripe with this post, please bring it directly to me.
Cool?
Chris Ptacek someone@prognosis.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman Go Home and Practice!
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3274 **************************
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