YTSEJAM Digest 1850
Today's Topics:
1) Ytsecon + ACRNYMS
by psull@ici.net (Pat Sullivan)
2) grits are tasty
by Michael Van Opstall <vnopstal@cs.hope.edu>
3) Edge guitar/Yes/Nickelbag
by Randall Braun <RBraun@adnc.ameridata.com>
4) Abbreviations
by Rick Audet <ytse@cris.com>
5) QR/SV/DT/etc
by Partha Mukhopadhyay <ahtrap@umich.edu>
6) axl hehe!
by RipZero <ripzero@dreamt.org>
7) Atlantis home page
by rinverso@cosi.stockton.edu (<rinverso@cosi.stockton.edu)
8) Re: YTSEJAM digest 1848
by szucseue@saber.udayton.edu
9) 311 newsgroup (READ THIS! DTC!)
by DreamNDay@aol.com
10) Re: YTSEJAM digest 1849
by Stan Tyszka <sstys@earthlink.net>
11) Re: Dave and Death
by SandS@challserv.challenger.net (Sally Murphy)
12) Death... Approach... Friend...
by Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl>
13) Re: yestuff, n0stuff, otherstuff
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
14) Hair loss.
by Ben Laussade <laussade@sprynet.com>
15) Re: 311 newsgroup (READ THIS! DTC!)
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
16) Fates Warning
by "Andrew Keith Garinger" <garinger@pilot.msu.edu>
17) Me Shoppin
by blane@nla.gov.au
18) Imaginary Numbers
by Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:44:15 -0400
From: psull@ici.net (Pat Sullivan)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Ytsecon + ACRNYMS
Message-ID: <199609191649.MAA11046@uhura.ici.net>
>Are there any other Jammers arriving from out-of-town well before the
>Con and leaving well after? I'm arriving on Thursday and leaving
>Monday and I'm hoping there might be others to kinda hang with, at
>least on Sunday and maybe Friday. I'm staying at the hotel and
>sharing room-costs with Jammer Chris Oates on con-night, and staying
>at Heath "Augie" Augustover's the other nights (I hope!) I won't have
>a car, but with luck, others will. :)
I'm gonna be driving down Friday morning with a friend. We're staying Friday
and Saturday at the Marriott with at least one other jammer (Jason Skewes),
and we *will* have a car, so we'll pack in as many as we can when we head
out! :)
-----
>>minutes trying to decipher one of those) can you just quit it? in
>>short, abbrvitns sck.
>
>I finally figured out what LiT is.. and I've had the tape a year or so now...
This is more of a response to the first post.
I had the same problem when I first joined the list (back around issue 700).
Yes, it can get a little annoying, but the alternative is having to type out
long-ass names every time (which also wastes bandwidth). If you are unsure
of what an acronym on the list stands for, there is a list of the most
common ones listed in the FAQ.
-----
__<psull@ici.net>__http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html___
This space for rent...No pithy quotes need apply
____________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:53:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Van Opstall <vnopstal@cs.hope.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: grits are tasty
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.960919125118.25463A-100000@smaug>
Hey, kids --
you better cut the math stuff out asap before I step in. it'll get nasty
fast if that happens.
I've heard that DTs new stuff grooves. is that the case? I've not heard
any of it. The deal is: if it's what Joe Satriani is the the Extremist for
Satriani, it'll be a good thing. I could use some quality funky stuff.
Michael A. Van Opstall -- vnopstal@cs.hope.edu
http://www.cs.hope.edu/~vnopstal/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:22:00 -0500
From: Randall Braun <RBraun@adnc.ameridata.com>
To: "'Ytsejam'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Edge guitar/Yes/Nickelbag
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GE%l=AMERIDATA/ADNC/00016B9C@adnc.ameridata.com>
....... Cool. "Voodo Child" (SRV did a killer version of it) is
on the
radio right now. I think I might have to go dig my Hendrix disc out.
...... If you want to hear someone experiment with guitar
sounds,
listen to The Edge (U2). Now, of course, the music isn't exactly prog,
but Edge does some funky-ass things with effects.
Edge has always had a different, unique sound. I don't think you can put
him up there with the "guitar gods", but his style is, well, an
interesting change. The sound exists from their earliest stuff, but I
think allot of the recent innovations can be attributed to the
influences of Brian Eno, who's always been the experimental type. The
innovations really started on Unforgettable Fire, the first album
involving the Eno/Lanois touch, although its missing on "Rattle & Hum",
except for the one song produced by Eno.
-speaking of Voodoo Child<<--Jimi Hendrix-->>All Along the Watchtower
(actually composed by B. Dylan)-->>U2-->Rattle &Hum-->Bono's attempt @
guitar (its actually easy, 3 basic cords, see the movie)
Dale, haven't heard from ya 4a while??
-On the Yes album thread: I basically agree w/ the general
analyses/trend. Just to add by $0.02-while "Drama" may be/not be
considered a 'true' Yes album, it has, IMHO, some of the tightest/best
Yes riff's from the Yes inner core (Howe, Squire &White). I've been a
Yes fan since The Yes Album (1st w/ Howe) & Fragile (1st w/Wakeman, well
actually the Yes cover of P. Simon's "America" came 1st)) first came out
on vinyl; that's 20+ years ago!!!!!!!!
In da CD: Lemur Voice, Insights; Shadow Gallery, Carved in Stone; King's
X, Ear Candy; DT, Awake; Tori Amos, Under the Pink.
Does anyone out ther know much about the group "Nickelbag"; kinda sound
like a heavy cross between King's X & In Living Colour (IMHO)???
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:07:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rick Audet <ytse@cris.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Abbreviations
Message-ID: <199609191807.OAA15876@beasley.cris.com>
Those of you who aren't up-to-speed on all the abbreviations (e.g., LiT,
LatM, etc.) should be informed that there's a page at the DT web site which
has a list of all the abbreviations with their definitions. It's in there
somewhere.
Abbreviations help a lot.
-Rick
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\***************** Richard S. Audet ********************/
/****************** ytse@cris.com ********************\
\**** Graduate Student in Electrical Engineering ******/
/********* University of Florida ********\
\****** B.S.E.E. & B.Music MUE University of Miami, 1995 ******/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:11:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Partha Mukhopadhyay <ahtrap@umich.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: QR/SV/DT/etc
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.960919140213.7867A-100000@galaga.rs.itd.umich.edu>
About Queensryche: Promised Land as an album might not be in the same
class as O:M and Empire (for me anyway), but I think the title track might
be the best song they've ever created......it gets to 8 minutes long by
counting the nature walk at the end, btw....
Stve Vai's fire garden, if it were concluded at the end of the Fire Garden
Suite, might have contended for my favorite album ever.....too bad he
starts singing on side two, it's gonna have to settle for best album of
the year 1997 honors in my book.....
the title suite is simply amazing, from the Middle Eastern stylings that
even my dad liked, then switching at the third part to a Metallica-esque
driving bassline with fireworks going off all around it.....dammit, that's
what i want Metallica to sound like!
in spite of my anticipation for TFE, and the fact that I got Vai on
TUesday, only because y'all *talked* me into it (I'd only heard P&W
before), Fire Garden is the better of the two, in my honest opinion
Oh and about DT: those Detroit Tigers sure do suck, don't they?? Before
yesterday, they needed 21 strikeouts to get the all time record for most
strikeouts in a season.....I guess they were trying to get them all in one
game.....
partha
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:15:53 -0500
From: RipZero <ripzero@dreamt.org>
To: Heavy Metal Computer Nerds <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: axl hehe!
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960919181553.006d2fa4@mail.inlink.com>
>just ask anybody in St. Louis about Axl and you're unlikely to get a positive
>response - remember the riot at Riverport a few years ago?
hey, i have an .ra file of this!!!! i dont know if its still around, but
its DAMN FUNNY so if anyone wants it ask.. i've also got a bunch of .ra
files of axl getting pissed off onstage and having hissy fits.
=)
~Rip
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:39:55 EDT
From: rinverso@cosi.stockton.edu (<rinverso@cosi.stockton.edu)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Atlantis home page
Message-ID: <memo.230117@cosi.stockton.edu>
Hello Jammers,
This is just everyone who has ever accessed the Atlantis home page
that it finally has been updated. For those of you who don't know who
Atlantis is they are a progressive metal band from South Jersey who sounds
kind of like a cross between Yes, Sabbath, and Pantera. They will be
appearing on Dreg's "Dregs of the Internet" Compilation CD. THe updated
page doesn't have any new song clips as of yet but will once the singer
mails me the zipped up files. There is one clip there though for first
timers to get a taste of what they are all about. Those of you who have
visited the site or will visit the site please e-mail me with comments or
suggestions. You can also e-mail me if you want to recieve word when any
additional updates are made(like when the new song samples are added). The
URL for this site is http://loki.stockton.edu/~stk3934/Atlantis/atlan1.htm
my e-mail address is rinverso@cosi.stockton.edu
Agian, please e-mail me with comments and ideas, for I am always trying to
make this site better.
Thanx for your time,
Ryan Inverso.....KDR66 on IRC chat
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:39:09 -0400
From: szucseue@saber.udayton.edu
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1848
Message-ID: <96091914390910@saber.udayton.edu>
According to management at the moment, the G3 thang will only
be 25 US dates, and at the moment there are no further plans to tour
outside the US. Sorry, Marcel
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:00:24 -0400
From: DreamNDay@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: 311 newsgroup (READ THIS! DTC!)
Message-ID: <960919160023_105883705@emout17.mail.aol.com>
i went on the 311 newsgroup to find someone who taped their Letterman
performance. Instead, i found something quite shocking. Not only were a lot
of people knocking on Rage, but, well, just read this.
>Rage is about music first, all the members will tell you that. All the
>members are unique and talented musicians. Mike Morello is a genius with
>a guitar, did I mention they dont use any samples or keyboards?
>Rage is better than half the groups that have newsgroups. I mean cmon,
>Dream Theater? When's the last time you heard something from them?
>
>And they are not hippocrites like Pearl Jam. They truly believe in the
>causes they support.
Can you believe this asshole?! first he talks like he's the biggest Rage fan
in the world and can't even get Tom Morello's name right. Then he goes and
takes a cheap shot at DT! I wish I hadn't erased this guys e-mail address so
we could flood his account. if anyone would join alt.music.311 to find out
his address, I would appreciate it. BTW, everyone talks about how Rage sux
because "Any asshole can rub a pick against their strings". Oh well. Join a
newsgroup from a commercially succesful band and you wind up being with a lot
of ignorant posers.
=============================================================
Life sucks and I don't care
later--------------Brian
=============================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:38:01 +0000
From: Stan Tyszka <sstys@earthlink.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1849
Message-ID: <324176E9.456F@earthlink.net>
> >reminded me of Chevy Chase. Oops. I guess I was hallucinating.
>
> Okay. Did he die, or is he alive? Chase's career bit the dust years back,
> but that much we all know.
actually mr chase is alive and well and filming a movie in las vegas.
National Lampoons Las Vegas Vacation, to be released summer '97.
Supposedly this is the one that is going to revive his carreer.
cheers,
stan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:36:54 -0500
From: SandS@challserv.challenger.net (Sally Murphy)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Dave and Death
Message-ID: <19960919223653349.AAA488@SandS>
>And this van halen thing: people on the radio
>round here say that david lee roth is still in the band. SO WHICH IS IT?
He's baaaaaaack! They were all together on the EmptyV Video Music Awards.
It was pretty funny. Who said you can't go home again?
> I thought this thread was interesting on the Vocalist digest. They
> started talking about when piece you would like sung at your funeral.
> Yeah, it's a bit macabre, but what the hell?
>
> What DT song would you have played at your funeral and why?
Macabre, yes, but, for me, it would have to be Voices or ACOS. Shiver me
timbers!
See you on the other side!
Shane Hunziker
*************************************************************************
* Shane Hunziker *
* SandS@mail.challenger.net *
*************************************************************************
* "O come let us adore him, abuse him, then ignore him. No matter *
* what, don't let him be. Let's feed upon his misery. Now it's *
* time for them to deal with me." - Dream Theater, "A Change of Seasons"*
*************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:27:10 +-200
From: Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl>
To: "'The Ytsejam'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Death... Approach... Friend...
Message-ID: <01BBA68F.012BC340@Kes.startrek.GlobalXS.nl>
Steve Johnson said :
> I thought this thread was interesting on the Vocalist digest. They
> started talking about when piece you would like sung at your funeral.
> Yeah, it's a bit macabre, but what the hell?
We had that thread on the Marillion list months ago...
> What DT song would you have played at your funeral and why?
Depends on the cause of death :
Strangulation : The Killing Hand
Explosion : Light Fuse and Get Away
Afterlife : Provided there is one
Heart Attack : Only A Matter Of Time
Drowning : Pull Me Under
Old age : Take The Time
Shot by cops : Surrounded
Euthanasia : Wait For Sleep
After dementia : Voices
After a coma : The Silent Man
Mutilation : Scarred
I think I want them to play "Learning To Live"... Wouldn't *that* be
ironic ? "To Live Forever" would work too, of course :-)
___
Anthony Sciamanna said :
> That's why ABWH couldn't use the Yes name but they could call their
> live album "An evening with Yes".
It's "An evening of Yes music Plus". Big difference ;-D
Morbid Mark
_______________________________________________________itchy@dreamt.org__
All of us get lost in the darkness _ _____ ___ _ _ _ _
Dreamers learn to steer by the stars (`)(_```_)/``_)(`)_(`)(`)_(`)
All of us do time in the gutter RUSH | | ) ( ( (_ | _ | \_ /
Dreamers turn to look at the cars THE PASS (_) (_) \___)(_) (_) (__/
____________________________________________________bredius@globalxs.nl__
Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Most Frequent Poster List
http://www.globalxs.nl/home/b/bredius/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 19:07:52 EDT
From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: yestuff, n0stuff, otherstuff
Message-ID: <9609192307.AA19741@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
The original members of Yes were:
Chris Squire, gass guitar, backing vocals
Peter Banks, lead guitars
Bill Bruford, drums
Tony Kay, keyboards
John Anderson, vocals
So, the only original peopole left are Anderson and Squire. Bill Bruford left
after Close to the Edge to play in King Crimson and various other projects.
Peter Banks left after the second album, and I don't rightly know where he
went. Tony Kay left after the Yes album, returned on 90125, and left after
Talk. He's managing Yes now, I think. So, Steve Howe, Rick Wakeman and Alan
White are the other current members, and they are the most famous, especially
Steve Howe and Rick Wakeman. Hope that helps. There were other members
besides the drummer, guitarist and keyboard player. There was Paterick Moraz
on keys, Trevor horn on vocals, Jeff Downs on keys, Tony Levin on bass and
stick for the Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe project, and of course tRevor
Raben on guitar for the 80s incarnation. Yes has a lot of folks in it and
their history can get confusing. But they are really good, one of the
godfathers of prog. Any DT fan should at least listen to them to partly
understand the beginnings of prog as we know it.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:21:45 -0700
From: Ben Laussade <laussade@sprynet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Hair loss.
Message-ID: <199609192321.QAA22331@m5.sprynet.com>
>Shedding? You're so silly. <ahem> We musical-types coined the term "shed"
>(not to be confused with "shred")
Really? My bad. I thought it was a typo of shred. :) BTW....were you
implying by "we musical types" that I'm not a musical type?
>Um.... seems you're a bit behind on your Jams, fellah. That LONG-ass .sig
>was from several issues ago. Oh, silly me, you were trying to be funny. <shrug>
Uh...okay.
>Hm. (aside) It appears Mr. Laussade forgot to where he was posting. Poor
>fellah. :)
No, I remember...this is the Kurt Cobain/Mindcrimer Fan Club/Blind Melon
list, right?
>______Ben Laussade________________ ____ ___ ____ _ __ __ _ ______________
> laussade@sprynet.com (``_ \ (``__) (``\ (`) ".`^~,^.
> _ _ _____ ____ ____ | (_) ) | (__ | \ | | '._',_.;
>(`)_(`)(_```_) /``__)(``__) ___ | _ < | __) | |\ \| | ( \/ )
> \_ / ) ( (___ )| __) (___) | (_) ) | (__ | | \ | DT \ / RULEZ
>_(__/____(_)__(____/_(____)_______(____/___(____)_(_)__\__)_____\/_______
>
>How about this one, Ben ? It's six lines, just like *my* sig...
>It's yours if you want it :-)
WOWOWOW! That rules. But I'm too modest for .sig's like that. Yeah, I'm the
most modest person in the world. I rule over you. You suck. HA! :-)
>i, for example, have spent 5
>minutes trying to decipher one of those) can you just quit it? in
>short, abbrvitns sck.
>
HM,WDYJSTFUBIKYATCABBIAMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>I think some obvious choices would be PMU and 6:00. I would want them
> to play TLF, extended acoustic version including the whole "This just
> in from Bahgdad" that James throws in on the Subcon. (?) version.
On the same subject, only different....if I knew when I was going to
die...if it was for some reason planned, I think the most emotional thing
that could ever be is ACoS playing (the end specifically) in the time before
I was gone...so I'd croak right on cue with "I WILL LIVE
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!" Not that I want to die right now....but that would
kick ass. :)
Ben Laussade
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 19:46:34 EDT
From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: 311 newsgroup (READ THIS! DTC!)
Message-ID: <9609192346.AA00800@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
This might be blasphemy, but I am more annoyed about the comments that Rage
doesn't use keyboards. Like this is a good thing? OK, you alternative lovers
can have your "every-song-sounds-the-same" sound, and I will take my
versatile keyboards and produce better music with morre variety in its
texture and probably more talent in its composition. By the way, apparently
this guy isn't aware that there is an album coming out in the winter and that
the EP was released last year. This is about a year and a half between
releases. So there. When was the last time you heard anything intelligent com
from an alternative list, anyway?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:52:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew Keith Garinger" <garinger@pilot.msu.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Fates Warning
Message-ID: <199609192352.TAA77101@pilot10.cl.msu.edu>
What ever happened to FW's new album? Anyone know when it's going to be
eleased. I'm interested to hear an album that consists completely of one long
song...
Also, this probably isn't the best place to ask this, but what's up with
a new Descendents album?!? I was under the impression that they broke up
when Milo left the band. Has Milo come back and booted Chad Price from ALL
and changed the name back, or is this just another live/greatest hits CD?
It's on Epitaph, so I would guess that it's a new release...
Andrew
-- garinger@pilot.msu.edu Zeta Beta Tau-Beta Epsilon ChapterFor most people, music is a backdrop for their lives. For me, my life is a backdrop for my music.
GB/MU d- s++:-- a-- C++ !U P? !L E--- W+ N-- K- w-- !O M-- !V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP t++ 5 X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++ D++ G- e* h++ r--- !y+ (The above Geek Code may be decoded at http://hci.ise.vt.edu/~jreiss/ geek/geek.cgi)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:52:45 +0000 From: blane@nla.gov.au To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Me Shoppin Message-ID: <199609192355.JAA39538@email.nla.gov.au>
Hiya Jammeriods,
The first of my CD's arrived this week. 2 Ivanhoe's 'Visions & Reality', 'Symbols of Time'.
My first impressions were that these guys were a week mix of DT and some early QR but . . . . after 2-3 listens of Symbols of Time I recon these guys rock. I haven't started listening to Visions & Reality yet but I am hoping its similar. These guys show a lot of promise and I recommend Symbols of Time and their next album should be a must get.
See yas, bReTt
--------------------------------------------------------------- Brett Lane blane@nla.gov.au CSC Australia Phone: +61 6 262 1659 A Unit of Computer Sciences Corporation FAX: +61 6 273 2116
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:22:24 -0700 From: Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Imaginary Numbers Message-ID: <199609192022.NAA18845@main.cfmc.com>
>From: Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl>
>>> Wrong. division by zero is undefined. You can't do it. try it on a >>> calculator:) whoa now i sound nerdy. >> >> Um... I don't know what started this thread but....uh.....I think the >> answer is indeed infinity, for whatever it's worth. I could elaborate, >> but I won't, 'cause it ain't DTC. Trust me on this. ;-) > >Try approximation !!! Let's say you're not dividing by zero, but by >something that approximates zero, for instance 0.0000000000000000000001 ! >The more "zero's" you add, the bigger the result gets... Now, imagine >dividing by an infinately small number (zero). The result *will* be >infinity !!! Ok, I also think 0/0 should be *one*... A/A = 1/1 <-- A=0 >Nevermind... > >Mark (Btw, Math is COOL!)
Hmmm....and I studied History and Sociology in school. This is my fault, I guess, since I called my message "Division By Zero"....actually came up because I had a conversation with a friend and we both thought it would be an appropriate name for a college band. That having been said, even I know that division by zero leaves an infinite response. Dividing 0 by 0 is undefined, as I recall, since there is no viable receptor or delimiter on either end.
For those people who don't care about math: I saw Yes on the "Union" tour, and found it to be quite a show. All the different configurations of the band playing was interesting. Highlights: Jon Anderson and Chris Squire doing "Amazing Grace," the double-drummer solo, "Heart Of The Sunrise," "Roundabout" (duh....Steve Howe was awesome on that one). I'd also point people into related material towards Steve Howe's "Turbulance" record. It's pretty damn impressive.
Adam D. Barnhart adamb@cfmc.com ydnt85a@prodigy.com
Five Gratuitous CD's: ===================== 1. Rush: Test For Echo 2. Iron Maiden: The X Factor 3. Jethro Tull: Roots To Branches 4. Steve Vai: Passion And Warfare 5. Youssou N'Dour: The Lion
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 1850 **************************
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