YTSEJAM Digest 1862
Today's Topics:
1) mindcrimer v. portnoy
by kurt@fgallery.com
2) Butchering the language/QR campaign
by Jennifer <jenibear@gvn.net>
3) Mindcrimer
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu>
4) mIRC
by Brian <DreamNDay@dreamt.org>
5) :)
by RipZero <ripzero@dreamt.org>
6) enough of this already
by "Andrew Miller" <subtlerage@hungary-c.it.earthlink.net>
7) Re: YTSEJAM digest 1861
by Stan Tyszka <sstys@earthlink.net>
8) Re: YTSEJAM digest 1861
by Stan Tyszka <sstys@earthlink.net>
9) Re: YTSEJAM digest 1861
by Doug Cronkhite <dougc@cerf.net>
10) mindcrimer's opinions
by <raitz@guvatrak.ee> "Raivo Hool"
11) My rebuttle to Mindcrimer!
by Jonathan Case <jcase@ROSSBY.METR.ou.edu>
12) Vinnie Moore..(new album),...Joey Tafolla??....prog-metal treasures
by "Carlo D'Angelo" <helstar@earthlink.net>
13) mindcrimer's opinions
by kurt@fgallery.com
14) Re: Mindcrimer shit...
by "Trey Allen" <tallen@cybermax.net>
15) Re: mindcrimer's opinions
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
16) Buttcrimer
by Ben Laussade <laussade@sprynet.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:46:34 -0400
From: kurt@fgallery.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: mindcrimer v. portnoy
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.16.9.22.-12.46.34.2916992174.345329@bbs.fgallery.com>
I agree with what youre saying ,mindcrimer has to get a life.. oh ..and
the song that they took different parts was TTT,and then only the
lyrics..since its the only song in which it says images and words dream
theater.. not "images: dream theater" words: kevin moore like pmu for
example..
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 17:55:14 -0000
From: Jennifer <jenibear@gvn.net>
To: "Ytsejam Mailing List" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Butchering the language/QR campaign
Message-ID: <199609230053.RAA03283@pawn.ax.com>
Zach decreed the following in Ytsejam #1855:
>As for Geoff not saying "The" Promised land, remember,
>this is the country where most people: write "no one" as
>"noone", don't know when it's appropriate to use "too"
>instead of "to", don't realize that an "'s" does *not*
>denote plurality, that "whose" is the past tense of "who is",
>say "if I was" instead of "if I were" for conditional tense,
>etc...
Oh, I just have to add one to this! How about "alot"? Or "could care
less"? :P
Andrew said the following in #1859:
>someone gave me this info on irc one nite, but i lost it (stupid me)...
>does anyone have the information for joining the QR fan club? if so,
>could ya mail me directly?
Personally, I was not very impressed. :( Before the advent of the new
fanzine, I'd paid ten dollars to join and only six months later, Tina
wanted another $30! Buyer beware, I say.
Jen
o.-.o For millions of years mankind lived just like animals
((^)) Then something happened which unleashed the power of our
imagination
O) _ (O
O/ \O We learned to talk (Gilmour/Samson)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 21:04:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu>
To: Ytse Jam <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Mindcrimer
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9609222104.C2661-0100000@griffin.emba.uvm.edu>
Everybody please stop replying to Mindcrimer here. He's not a member of
the list and won't read what you have to say, unless you mail him
directly. All good thoughts, but you're wasting your time sending them
here.
-D
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ Secretary
cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" UVM Comp Sci Student Assn
d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed
http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" - Peart
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List
http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 21:03:04 -0700
From: Brian <DreamNDay@dreamt.org>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: mIRC
Message-ID: <32460BF8.D94@dreamt.org>
OK, everyone, I have to catch up on the jams because I am just figuring
out my new server. I've asked Pat and Skadz for help, but I feel that I'm
being a pain, so would someone who is familiar with Netscape please tell
me what I have to download in order to get irc access? I think I need
some kind of a plug-in and I'm pretty sure that my mIRC file is screwed
up so I have to download it again. Thanx in advance!
later--------------Brian
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:11:29 -0500
From: RipZero <ripzero@dreamt.org>
To: Heavy Metal Computer Nerds <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: :)
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960923011129.006b1538@mail.inlink.com>
>
>>i'm willing to bet even record companies arent stupid shit enough to just
>pull out a non talented form of music and make it popular...
>
> Disco.
>
>>implying that the fans are a bunch of mindless trend followers
>
> Disco.
hahaha, well it doesnt count if they're too stoned to know whats going on...
of course "bow chick bow bow" sounds better than prog. :)
~Rip
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:44:16 +0000
From: "Andrew Miller" <subtlerage@hungary-c.it.earthlink.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: enough of this already
Message-ID: <199609230136.SAA26651@serbia.it.earthlink.net>
On 22 Sep 96 at 17:50, ytsejam@ax.com spewed forth the following
words:
> Well one things for certain Queensryche haven't put out a decent album
> since Operation Mindcrime which was exceptional as were most of their
> stuff up to that point.
in *your* opinion. i myself, as well as many other people,
thoroughly enjoy post O:M Queensryche. in fact, i like Promised Land
more then any of their other albums. the subject matter is that of a
personal, introspective nature, rather then a story, as O:M was.
that doesn't take away from O:M in anyway; i really like it. i just
happen to like PL more.
> here a few months ago: Compared to a few years ago Geoff Tate can't
> cut it live like he used to and that James Labrie is the heir apparent
> for Geoff Tate if you want a great live vocal performance.
strange. i saw QR in concert last year and Tate was amazing. and if
you think Labrie sings a flawless performance everytime, you're
sorely mistaken. ask him yourself; no one's perfect, everyone has a
bad night. just because someone saw Tate on a bad nite does *not*
mean he's lost his voice. the same goes for any singer.
> The other thing I don't understand is why when musicans get a little
> older why is it that they 1. Cut their hair 2. Wimp out 3. Get more
> commercial?
wimp out? perhaps you could define wimp out? just because a band
changes in a manner that does not fit you personal tastes does *not*
give you the justification to make broad, generalized statements
about them that in no way make any sense outside of your own mind.
and what does hair have to do with musical integrity? and
commercial? i always hate it when this discussion is brought up.
try and understand this... if bands never changed, never evolved,
they'd die out. people would lose interest in them. they have to
pay the bills and support themselves just like anyone else.
[snip]
> Dream Theater should be applauded for keeping their
> integrity. Many Jammers are wondering and hoping that DT will be
> mega popular. Think again. How would you react if in 5 years time
> Mike P took this dicks advice and lost the passion in his playing
> DT would then release their equivalent of Metallica's Load the
> biggest load of shit that they have ever put out.
right. and what happens if the new DT comes out and you believe it
to be commercial sounding? DT's gonna change and evolve just like
everyone else. listen to WDADU, I&W, AWAKE and ACoS. there's most
defintely been a change. i've loved everything they've done so far.
but if, for some reason unknown to me at this point, they put out an
album that i don't like, i sure as hell won't openly flame them in a
public forum. maybe it's just me, but i still have a sense of
respect for an artist's choice and free will. and btw, avoid saying
that albums are "the biggst load of shit that they have ever put
out". that's not only disrespectful of the artist, but it's gonna
offend a helluva lot of people that like the album.
> As for drummers being upfront well DT is unique in that the usual
> stereotype that you're the guitarist or singer therefore you're the
> god of the band type bullshit doesn't apply here leaving out the
> equally creative bass and drummer and keys to contribute their talent.
now i do totally agree with you here. it's one of the reasons i like
DT so much. but don't go around slamming other bands that don't do
it.
this kinda irritates me. whoever posted the mindcrimmer's email in
the first place... please, please don't do it again. i understand
the reasons you did it, but all it's doing, and has done in the past,
has started QR vs DT threads. they are both great bands in their own
respect. there's no need to slam either one of them
Andrew
Andrew Miller - Keyboardist/Composer - SubtleRage
subtlerage@earthlink.net - http://members.gnn.com/subtlerage
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:07:22 +0000
From: Stan Tyszka <sstys@earthlink.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1861
Message-ID: <3245B89A.ED1@earthlink.net>
Mindcrimer wrote:
> If you listen
>to 'Pull Me Under', 'Take the Time', 'Metropolis I', and 'Under a
>Glass Moon', you can clearly hear the overexcessive, hot dog,
>showboat, annoying, machine gun drumming.
would this asshole know real talent if it bitch slapped him in hte
face???? I don't think so.. Is this asshole worth anyones time? I
don't think so.. Should this asshole be totally ignored? I do think
so!
cheers
stan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:10:21 +0000
From: Stan Tyszka <sstys@earthlink.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1861
Message-ID: <3245B94D.3A4D@earthlink.net>
>i'm willing to bet even record companies arent stupid shit enough to just
pull out a non talented form of music and make it popular...
Disco.
>implying that the fans are a bunch of mindless trend followers
Disco.
>isnt right, there's a lot of bright people who enjoy the music simply
because its fun.
Disco!
Zach
ahh yes, good old disco, there were probably hundreds of record execs
looking on and laughing at those wild disco suits and platform shoes.
just an example that the fashion industry was in on doing something to
make money.......Plaid........need I say more?
cheers
stan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:23:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug Cronkhite <dougc@cerf.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1861
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960922190730.1231A-100000@noc.cerf.net>
To the comments made by MindCrimer..
One of the joys of DT is the fact that they are all superb musicians in
their own right, and have managed to come up with a working arrangement
that allow each person space within the composition to express himself and
yet still sound like a cohesive unit. I can't think of any instance on
the DT recordings where I thought "Nah.. he played way too much there".
In a musical environment where any drug addict who can play 3 (2 ??)
chords can be a "rock star", bands like DT, QR and others are a
refreshing break from what's being shoved down our throat.
And oh by the way.. you cannot compare QR to DT. They are now apples and
oranges.. QR is much more song oriented whereas DT has been and still is,
much more compositional oriented.. When i first heard the last QR CD.. i
didn't care for it much.. but only because it wasn't what _I_ was
expecting.. not because it wasn't any good.. it's very good.. and for
that matter.. for those who complain that it's not like MindCrime.. WHO
WANTS IT TO BE ??? I for one don't want a band to remain stagnant. I
doubt any musician can live and not change.. everything affects what you
play, and what you write.. I suspect that mr. MindCrimer is not a
musician.. or he would know and understand this change..
Last thing:
I saw Zakk Wylde last Wed.. very cool.. just him and another guitarist
playing acoustic/electrics.. and a piano.. 2 hrs worth.. the time just
flew by.. he was amazing.. if you get the chance.. see him.. oh. and
bring along an open mind..
Doug Cronkhite
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 05:31:34 +2000
From: <raitz@guvatrak.ee> "Raivo Hool"
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: mindcrimer's opinions
Message-ID: <199609230242.FAA06362@pepe.online.ee>
>people on here complaining of the lack of Dream Theater content, and
>since they don't have anything new out yet, here is something to
>laugh, or shake your head about....Opinions Welcome....Dusty
while utterly opinionated, he still has his moments. i see his
problem. he needs to gnash his teeth and this time portnoy got his
attention.
then again, he has his points. he obviously doesn't know about the
trigger thing portnoy was FORCED to be happy with (and, if i may add,
completely failed to do so). the drums do sound too clean and if you
use your imagination, you can think of them as machine gun bursts
sometimes. if the sound were better, he wouldn't have anything to say
about mike, granted. he would find someone else to bash. (or tcsh,
or...) :-)
portnoy played much more drums on "awake". you know it's there, but
you can't see where. that's what sound can do. and i give 5 outta 5
to the sound on "awake" overall.
side notes. i saw someone else also thought that the new song titles
were weak. on second thought, i think they even kinda suck. it looked
like bon jovi to me. imagine, somebody goes to a music store, being
told that dream theater is a major kickass in neo-prog. then he/she
sees the titles and mumbles, "what an utter piece of crap", and off
he (she) goes.
there's no point in idolizing every single word from a band you like.
conversions. i played my "awake" tape in a friend's car. quite
educated musically as he is, he kept listening and listening, he
counted the time changes, and he was entirely impressed. he said,
"these are not songs anymore, these are compositions".
my mother was floored by savatage's "chance" and liked "images and
words". she never ceases to amaze me.
raitz
maybe all I need besides my pills and surgery
is a new metaphor for reality
queensryche, "dis con nec ted"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 21:45:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Case <jcase@ROSSBY.METR.ou.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: My rebuttle to Mindcrimer!
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.960922213141.4053A-100000@rossby>
Yes, I am obliged to reply to that MIndcrimer's IAW commentary.
As a trained and disciplined percussionist, I truly am disheartened by
the majority of today's movement in music. Computerized drum machines
were one of the worst inventions for music. There go the subtleties and
nuances of tempo changes, rhythmic variations, etc. We are truly mired
in a world where a metronome can replace the drummer.
It is attitudes such as Mindcrimer's which continue to feed this beast.
When a percussionist finally is allowed to express him(her)self, and add
some excitment for those who can actually APPRECIATE drumming for the
true art and skill that it is, then some ignorant imp comes along and
comments negatively. TRUE, the double bass could have been toned down a
bit on IAW, as well as the snare drum, but it does not, BY ANY MEANS,
take away from the music. It simply adds intensity, drive, and focus to
the songs. However, I was quite disappointed when I heard the flat,
tinny sound to the snare drum on ACOS. What happened to the fullness???
I hope that DT's next release adds more body to the drums again. I think
the perfect tone and contribution from the drums is on Awake. If we
could simply combine vocals, bass, and keyboards from IAW with drums from
Awake, then we'd have the best combination. Guitars seemed fine
sound-wise on all releases.
Anyhow, getting back on track: Mindcrime needs to Wake up to Awake, and
not let a single album with a little too much double bass sound (but NOT
too much double bass playing!), such as IAW, affect his judgement of
DT. Further, he REALLY need to be able to appreciate the skill,
techniques, and talent that a good drummer adds to a band, when they can
simultaneously play full-force AND with restraint on separate songs. Too
bad more people cannot appreciate drumming and precussion instruments for
what they are!!
Jon Case
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:49:18 -0400
From: "Carlo D'Angelo" <helstar@earthlink.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Vinnie Moore..(new album),...Joey Tafolla??....prog-metal treasures
Message-ID: <3245FAAE.2E1@earthlink.net>
Hey guys...Carlo here (aka Fates, aka YtseSatan)
I just wanted to clear up the Vinnie Moore question by letting
whoever asked about his new album know that his NEW album is called
"From Out of Nowhere" and was released a few months ago in Japan.
"Meltdown" came out after "Time Odyssey" and before "From Out of
Nowhere." I was VERY disappointed with "Meltdown" because Vinnie kind
of went for a more relaxed feel on this record...some blues, some
jazz,,which isn't bad..musically its still a great record..(ANYTHING
Vinnie moore puts out is amazing..a refreshing guitarists with a great
sense of melody!) I heard from my friend that "From Out of Nowhere" is
in the vein of "Meltdown" so thats why I didn't buy it.
However, I urge any fan of progressive, classical, shred metal to
check out his first two called "Mind's Eye" and "Time
Odyssey"..(especially "The Tempest", "Race with Destiny", Into the
Future".....melodic splendor of the gods!!)
Also, does anyone know what Joey Tafolla is currently doing? I have
his album he did with JAG PANZER and his solo album w/ Tony MacAlpine
and Paul Gilbert (never bought "Infrablue" though.....anyone ever hear
it??) Heard he's reuniting with the original lineup of JAG
PANZER..anyone know for sure?
There are TONS of progressive metal bands out there to get
into..you gotta look to Europe..(ESPECIALLY Italy, Greece, and Finland)
I have around 400 CD's (and counting...) I would be at my keyboard for
days if I had to give a description of every band so I'm just gonna
write down only the EXTREMELY highly regarded ones and let you guys find
'em..check for web pages and search engines or try Dream Disc (in
Indiana I think?) Ok, here goes.....ELDRITCH, ELDRITCH, ELDRITCH,
ELDRITCH, ohh did I say ELDRITCH yet (Italy), ANGRA, MERCURY RISING,
BLACK JESTER, CONCEPTION, ELEGY, NEVERMORE, HELSTAR, STRATOVARIUS, BLIND
GUARDIAN (someone posted about them before...yes, I am disappointed no
one in the states knows 'em..damn shame...superb speed picking,
harmonized leads, army of 1,000,000 choruses, and gotta love those J.R.
Tolkien/Stephen King lyrics..they RULE!!), you guys already know about
LEMUR VOICE, ABIGHOR, SECRECY, the almighty ICED EARTH!!, and throw in
ATTACK for good measure.
i've also come across lots of generic "prog-by-numbers" type of bands
that sound totally uninspired..IVANHOE, TAD MOROSE, and THRESHOLD come
to mind. But, i've only heard the albums a couple of times so I might
give 'em another listen. THE MUSIC IS OUT THERE!!! It needs all the
support it can get..especially in getting it back to the states. GO TO
PROG-NIGHT in NYC damnit!!!!!!! First Wednesday of every month at the
Rock-n-Roll Cafe, 149 Bleeker Street. I didn't get the flyer for the
next one but I think that one of the bands is similar to an OZRIC
TENTACLES type of band..sounds interesting. BUY THE MUSIC...DON'T DUB
IT!!!!! If you're gonna dub something, dub "Load" (of shit)..especially
when you've got someone like JASON BECKER who's whole existence right
know is funded by his albums sales.."Perspective" rocks...get it!
hope I lifted the fog from your eyes.....
cheers,
Carlo (aka Fates, aka YtseSatan)
-- "When you know that your time is close at hand maybe then you'll begin to understand Life down here is just a strange illusion."--IRON MAIDEN (Hallowed Be Thy Name)
"Neo-classical, progressive, melodic speed metal"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:16:04 -0400 From: kurt@fgallery.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: mindcrimer's opinions Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.16.9.22.-9.16.4.2916992174.345392@bbs.fgallery.com>
yeap..i bet that if mindcrimer took his time and listened to awake as he did with images he would change his opinion because the drums in awaske seem more down to earth, oposed to the images big trigger kick ass sound..even when portnoy plays even more complicated..you cant really say "overplayed" because the sound un awake helps in that matter.. also..when a friend of mine borrowed awake from me.. amd heard it once..the first thing he said was "its cool that song #4 is made up of other songs on the album" nd i was like .. sh*t!! how could he notice that from only listening to it once??? and he also can say "this is in this time sig and that is on blah time" when he has only studied a little music on books.. i asked him how he knew and he said "easy, jsut count blah bla"i didnt even understand how he did it.. anyways i was really impresed by this guy..
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:28:04 -0400 From: "Trey Allen" <tallen@cybermax.net> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Mindcrimer shit... Message-ID: <199609230332.XAA24046@max.cybermax.net>
THat was a very interesting post... The guy is allowed his opinion but it seemed kind of useless. Im glad he liked everything else about DT but thats kind of like me trying to say that Pantera is a great band but that heavy guitar ruins it all!!!! Thats rediculous!!!
Mindcrimer needs to learn that Portnoy ~~IS~~ Dream THeater, along with LaBrie, Petrucci, Myung, and Moore/Dereck. If you consistently dont like what one of htem does then you dont like Dream THeater... Thats about it... Its very simple...
********************************************************** "I hate to go to bed... I hate to wake up... But I love to sleep...???"
tallen@cybermax.net http://www.cybermax.net/~tallen/home.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 0:13:32 EDT From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: mindcrimer's opinions Message-ID: <9609230413.AA22617@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
hey, don't take song titles as law. let's think of songs where titles don't really mean anything, except just a title. Titles don't necessarily mean that the song will be cheesy. I mean, Rush has their moments. Ghost of a chance, could be considered cheesey, but it's not. Speed of love, is another one. Mission. Could be mistaken as a cheese song. I mean, I am sure if we think hard enough, we can come up with lots of prog songs that have what you would call weak titles. don't you think you're being a little ridiculous in ripping abpart song titles? Let's hear the songs before we criticize anything.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 21:43:39 -0700 From: Ben Laussade <laussade@sprynet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Buttcrimer Message-ID: <199609230443.VAA20901@m5.sprynet.com>
I have a complaint, and a request.
Complaint: To the person who posted the Mindcrimer thing.....please don't, because people get the idea that he's actually ON the list and reply, and end up flaming no one.
Request: Next time, leave me his e-mail adress. :)
Also, there's no point in arguing with this guy. The same way that no one will convince us NOT to like DT, no one will ever convince him TO like it. Ben's Law of Music Appreciation: For each argument for a style of music, or particular artist or group, there is an equal and opposite argument, and an arguer who you'll never get through to.
>It occurs to me to note that I'm a 3-octave soprano I. Might be helpful.
I've got three octaves. They all sound like crap, but I can sing three octaves. :)
>P.P.S. And two weeks ago, I got to see Jethro Tull/ELP... Gosh... another >great show!! But ELP seemed bored.... Wasn't like the Black Moon tour... >But it's still great to see them live!
Really? Greg Lake seemed a little not-into it, but if I see someone stab their keyboards, it's kinda hard to believe they're bored. :) Of course, I haven't seen them live before, and I have nothing to compare it to, so this reply is, in turn, irrelevant and I should just stop, but that'd defeat the whole purpose of this rant, and hey....what kind of word is rant anyhow?
And now this.... I've been wanting to do this again for a long time, because 1. it's cool, 2. it's fun, and 3. it's even DTC. Yes folks, I'm talking about what was dubbed Visual Music. If you weren't here when it started the first time, it involves somebody going "duhduhduh doo daa daa dee" and somebody else trying to guess which (DT) song it is. Now, a lot of people didn't like it....one even referred to it as musical masturbation. So what? Everybody slaps the ol' trouser monkey around...I'm just doing it in tune! :) Down to the actual piece of music...there really aren't any rules; just hints to reading it. Of course, everybody does it differently. For the ones I do, they're usually read left to right..but not necissarily top to bottom. A lot of times, unless it's a drumline (which this one isn't), height of each syllable defines it's pitch relative to the other syllables. Well, here it is. :) ding ding dong ding ding
dee dee boo doo boo boo (repeat)
Since it's the first one, I'll give a hint....it IS a DT song, and this particular part is at the beginning of the song. Have fun. :)
Ben Laussade
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 1862 **************************
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